Curse

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 12, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

What could we do to encourage people to, I don't know, reach out, include, help train the next batch of competitive players?

A: Destroy the human race and start over
B: Give 1 fame for every game you play with a player that is below your rank

C: Hand out candy
D: unranked players get 128 bonus armor!

Hell Marauder · Feb 12, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

.
Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

Gaile, I'm really glad that you too feel this way, as I'm sure many female and pve gamers feel the same. But unfortunately, this type of thinking that "training future good pvpers is a good thing" doesn't work for most pvpers. To them, fewer competition for prestige, the better. So if you're asking them to include more "new players' into their groups, you are addressing wrong crowd.

As for ideas for being more inclusive, well, how about making rank emote not displayable in arena. Or allowing faction points to be exchanged for fame to alleviate problems for those who participate mostly in gvg, and those poor guildless souls spending most of their pvp hours in TA or CA? I'm sure there are plenty of ideas around.

Phades · Feb 12, 2006, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So we have a Catch 22, it's true: You can't get Rank if you don't participate, and you can't participate if you don't have Rank.

...

Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

If you were to keep the rank system as it is, the community will naturally segregate their teams into people of similar rank. The only solution comming to mind would be to segregate who faces who within the heroes acent pvp area. Take the average of rank and have them face off against teams of similar rank by introducing some mechanic/code similar to what exists that defines it as X guild has held the hall of hereos instead of Y person's party.

This way it gives a reason to include people of lower rank to have more varied matches on the way to the hall of hereos, or by contrast, have a greater challenge (in theory)by only facing off teams of equal or higher rank. The ranks could be teired in the way the game sets up the matches so that they arent too skewed until certain maps, such as the hall, where everyone who makes it that far competes against each other.

Otherwise you are left with being required to implement a point based system similar to the gvg ladder rankings where it is possible to lose rank over time due to failure. This would seperate the sucessful people from the people who merely are able to spend alot of time in the hereos ascent area. In doing so, there is a risk that the community becomes even more polarized for party selection. Combining both options together might yeild the best results, since all people eventually lose and would lose some points, but being a good player at a lower rank could yeild other opportunities to gaining rank with other people of higher rank wanting to face a more average challenge over time.

I do agree that there is a need to find people easily to party with and that there also is a need to guage relative talent for playing the game, since everyone wants to win. I feel that any tools introduced to help with party selection with those who are merely loitering versus those seeking parties can help, in addition to possibly setting up a search window for party leaders to list what professions they need, how many slots, and perhaps a small comment area for type of overal party build upon completion could help as well. Having this transcend districts and denote which district is home to the party would be wonderful, but i dont know if that is technically possible. You can send a whisper to anyone in game, regardless of location, so it doesnt seem too far out of the realm of possibility.

One of my only real complaints with the game as a whole, is how divided it feels and it is partly due to the lack of tools available in party creation. Currently all we have is the friends list, which is achieved rather haphazardly throughout playing or by guild invites which follows a similar method that the friends list takes. The game feels like an early FPS game setup, in terms of finding people to play with regularly, opposed to a more recent MMO game that has tools for party creation beyond spamming the chat window and scanning /who is here ala EQ1. I think any tool to help form the parties introduced will help smooth things along, if implemented along side any kind of scalable rank adjustments for gain/storage or matchups. Doing one or the other will not have same impact. Introducing other methods to guage relative experience will help as well. Sure, people can look at your guild tag and see if it is a sucessful in gvg fights, but i don't think that is enough considering gvg is the same (more or less) 8 people playing again and again, while the concern brought up here is with pick up groups in a different 8v8 venue. Perhaps translating some of the sucesses and failures over from ch2 city capturing into the faction consideration currently can help as well, spreading out the options to gauge relative sucess and experience within pvp options.

I think there are tons of possibilities available to ANET currently, but i also think they are busy in many different things at the moment. It would be nice to see some kind of change or implication that it is being considered in addition to gaile's comments, but i am not sure what would be the best recieved when doing so.

Akathrielah · Feb 12, 2006, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Gaile, I'm really glad that you too feel this way, as I'm sure many female and pve gamers feel the same. But unfortunately, this type of thinking that "training future good pvpers is a good thing" doesn't work for most pvpers. To them, fewer competition for prestige, the better. So if you're asking them to include more "new players' into their groups, you are addressing wrong crowd.

Plenty of places where veteran PvPs can help train newbies. PuGs in Hero's Ascent isn't one of them. People are there to win, not to hold some newbie's hand.

Phades · Feb 12, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

Plenty of places where veteran PvPs can help train newbies. PuGs in Hero's Ascent isn't one of them. People are there to win, not to hold some newbie's hand.

Can't exactly "train" them properly without the areas to play in really. If this wasnt the case, people wouldnt be as hesitant to take people who are unranked.

If you are also a "veteren" when and how long are you planning to hold those "newbie" hands and get them to not be inexperienced? Even if you say that you are going to devote a quarter of your online playtime doing so, i can easily see thousands just turning the other cheeck and ignoring them completely, while laughing at them later when they attempt to compete.

Clusmas · Feb 12, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sagius Truthbarron

A: Destroy the human race and start over
B: Give 1 fame for every game you play with a player that is below your rank

C: Hand out candy
D: unranked players get 128 bonus armor!

Can I Phone a Friend?

Akathrielah · Feb 12, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Can't exactly "train" them properly without the areas to play in really. If this wasnt the case, people wouldnt be as hesitant to take people who are unranked.

If you are also a "veteren" when and how long are you planning to hold those "newbie" hands and get them to not be inexperienced? Even if you say that you are going to devote a quarter of your online playtime doing so, i can easily see thousands just turning the other cheeck and ignoring them completely, while laughing at them later when they attempt to compete.

My apologies, should have clarified what I meant. I was refering to the idea that newbies should try getting into newbie friendly GvG guilds so that they can learn "there" (where ever the guild decides to instruct and train them is up to them), rather than trying to sneak into a PuG.

People more often than not just learn through their experiences rather than some mentor instructing them. People need to learn to stand on their own two feet, rather than insisting that its the duty of community to hold their hand and help them. Granted building a network of people is difficult, and Anet should implement a system besides that awkward friends list to help facilitate this. All in all however, it should be up to the players' own volition rather than depending on others.

Eclair · Feb 12, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Why not just add a separate Hero's Ascent for unranked players that doesn't affect favor? It only adds fame until rank (1-3) and you can no longer participate once you're rank is past 3.

Big_L · Feb 12, 2006, 07:40 AM // 07:40

guild tag > emote

All this fame farming has already been discussed to no end. Tons of people are rank 9 that don't really have the knowledge or skill on all the classes and strategies that they probably should have. Everyone knows this, and because of it, the rank emotes have lost a lot of credability. I remember fighting 40 minute matches in burial mounds for 2 fame, and taking a month to hit rank 3. Now you can do that in 2 days. The result is that fame means less and less. I know the people that I play with, and I don't care how much fame they have. I play with them because either I know them/the guilds they are in, or friends have vouched for them.

Its a balance issue. I'm sure Anet is working on it and hopefully it will be improved when skills are rebalanced around the 20th. Every time people learn to hold halls more than 6 or 7 times, Anet nerfs holding, so why bother? Its clearly much easier to play the first maps quickly and just restart when you lose. Most of the people arent entering tombs or HA anymore to hold halls, which results in everyone running iway.

I think more than just skill rebalances need to be done. The fame/tombs system keeps being changed to favor new players to pvp (less teams per match, easier alter taking, tougher to hold). This is great, but they need to remove the incentive of grinding away at the same early maps over and over again. Maybe remove the 40 fame cap, remove fame altogether for the first few maps, or increase the difference in fame earned after 4-5 consecutive wins.

I'm just gonna stop because i'm sick of all these rank discussions...

Phades · Feb 12, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akathrielah

My apologies, should have clarified what I meant. I was refering to the idea that newbies should try getting into newbie friendly GvG guilds so that they can learn "there" (where ever the guild decides to instruct and train them is up to them), rather than trying to sneak into a PuG.

Arguably they could learn how to do things the wrong way going either route, since the "newbie" friendly guilds i see advertising are commonly guilds that are either pve focused or still getting started themselves.

Its not about sneaking into someone else's pug, its about having the same opportunities the "vets" had when the "vets" were new to the game as well. The thing is, the game will never be reset really and the knowledge is already out there. So, in reality, the "vets" will at one point need to take them into their normal groups or shun them completely as is the norm now usually.

Warskull · Feb 12, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So we have a Catch 22, it's true: You can't get Rank if you don't participate, and you can't participate if you don't have Rank.

In my naivete, I thought "Oh, nice, cute little emotes to show that people have been playing a lot and doing well." Yep, I wasn't seeing it clearly. I must have forgotten the days of the SC ladder and how numbers were "the be all and end all" of getting onto a competitive team.

It seems many agree there's good in having Rank -- well deserved recognition for one thing -- but also a drawback. What could we do to encourage people to, I don't know, reach out, include, help train the next batch of competitive players? Maybe to engage those of "lowly rank"

by offering a place as a guest on their team?

Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

First off, inexperienced PvP players don't have any of the tools they need. implementing those new premades that the top guilds submitted would help a ton.

Second, better systems for forming groups need to be created. If it was easier to form something other than an IWAY group people would have more of a chance to learn this game.

Third, IWAY has to go. It is extremely easy to organize and quite effective for the skill it takes to run. As a result large amounts of players are drawn to IWAY to farm rank. They then don't know how to play anything else and continue to play IWAY. The end result is IWAY being so dominant in tombs that the only way to get a reliable non-IWAY group is to gather eight people you know. Independent of the issue "Is IWAY overpowered" is the fact that IWAY has stunted tombs to the point where the only reasonable way to gain rank is to play IWAY.

Finally, putting together a build isn't easy. A.net needs to help people out by posting simple 8-man builds that can work in tombs or GvG. Something 8 players who are new to PvP can get together, run, and a reasonable chance of success. The build isn't everything, but having a decent build helps a ton. Tap the resources of your pvp community or use Izzy (just make sure he doesn't invent another IWAY.)

When someone wants to get into PvP I tell them to join XoO. The way the game currently is, they don't have a prayer of getting into PvP otherwise.

Sagius Truthbarron · Feb 12, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

I seriously just now got into a group that was "rank 8+". The guy asked my 'rank?' and I said *You see a wolf emote flash before your eyes* and the guy accepts me in. O.o

I mean, I must be Force Sensative.

Edit; Warskull, I concur! Tell it, brotha!

tastegw · Feb 12, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

i tink i just saw a putty tat

ERMC · Feb 12, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

i myself just turned r6 acouple days ago and i can tell u it wasn't easy

i personally see that new players get frustrated to easy. They stand in halls say "LFG (insert class here)" and get frustrated when they don't get invites. after 30 min to an hour they get upset and leave. It takes time for someone that just zoned into HA to get a core pvp group. When i was first went in to tombs back when it was tombs and not HA wow i was so lost. Had no idea what i was doing and i using my sword w/mo and my fire nuker. I got about 18 fame in a months time. I got frustrated to after i went online i think my first reaction was like "WTF I NEED 180 FAME FOR A WORTHLESS DEER" i thought i would never get it. I continued though unlocked more things through faction delted a pve character for a pvp slot and got to work. I made it to r3 and i used my friends list. I added all these people i met and would form groups with them all the time. Fast forward i am now rank 6 and i haven't flashed my wolf (i named him Brandon) hardly ever in HA because the people that i tomb with pm me all the dang time to come with them.

Another thing i don't like about new players is they like to lump all pvpers in "rank elites" when that is far from the truth. That would be like me saying all unranked players are impatient people that don't listen. All because i seen many unranked players like that doesn't mean they are all like that.

if someone has the energy to come to this site to post a complaint about the rank system why not take the extra energy to use the search function and learn about tombs more? I seen alot of post on this site that are very helpfull for new players about HA.

As for you have to have rank to get in a group and you have to get in a group to get rank that is complete BS. If that was true there would be no new ranked players.

Today acouple hours ago actually i tried to put together a no rank requirment group. A specific build i use for HA so i ask for the classes and start getting alot of pms. I got the monks easy and when i asked there skill bar you would think i asked them for there credit card number on how they reacted. Then when i got people in the group they were like take my friend pls he's this and this and when i would say i need a me/e can they reroll they said just take him like that. And my personal favorite when u ask for a certain class and u get a pm saying
"oh i'm not what u asked for at all can i come"
then i would say "can u reroll?"
"oh come on i pwn noobs" or whatever the kids are saying now

ok after forming the group (that took about 30 min) i wanted to explain how it worked, after people saying just go a dozen times i finally got them to shut up and listen and i say this before we go in

"We are all new playing together so if we lose stay in the group and we can go again"

We get a +4 moral beat the first map get crushed second map

EVERYONE LEAVES

so you want advice new players
A. Don't get frustrated so easy it takes awhile
B. Be flexible
C. Listen
D. don't rush
E. Don't leave after losing 1 match

Celios · Feb 12, 2006, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So we have a Catch 22, it's true: You can't get Rank if you don't participate, and you can't participate if you don't have Rank.

In my naivete, I thought "Oh, nice, cute little emotes to show that people have been playing a lot and doing well." Yep, I wasn't seeing it clearly. I must have forgotten the days of the SC ladder and how numbers were "the be all and end all" of getting onto a competitive team.

It seems many agree there's good in having Rank -- well deserved recognition for one thing -- but also a drawback. What could we do to encourage people to, I don't know, reach out, include, help train the next batch of competitive players? Maybe to engage those of "lowly rank"

by offering a place as a guest on their team?

Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

I wrote what amounted to a massive and vague post on the subject, then decided to delete it in favor of a quicker "proposal-style" rundown of how Anet could recognize and cope with these issues. Gaile or any other member of the Anet staff, please take a moment to at least read through this. If nothing else, it'll give you a slightly deeper understanding into GW's real issues and some ideas on how to fix them:

The Problem(s)
-Experienced PvP players commonly discriminate in player selection based on an estimate of that player's HA experience
-Inexperienced PvP players have difficulty finding groups and getting the experience necessary to be effective
-The groups inexperienced PvP players are able to join - often after a significant amount of time spent searching for one - are largely inexperienced themselves, causing a "blind leading the blind" type scenario which serves to further frustrate these players and further hampers their ability to learn from the short playtime they do get

The Source of These Problems
-GW lacks an effective means of organizing groups short of spamming one district at a time in the hopes of finding what you're looking for - and that you're lucky enough to beat the 1/5 or 1/7 or whatever odds of finding it in that particular district. This is evidenced by the fact that groups requiring a large variety of individual builds are rare and nigh-impossible to organize (Balanced, Mixed Spike, Hex-Oriented, etc) while groups that are composed of many similar individual builds (IWAY, Ranger Spike, etc) are exceedingly and increasingly popular.
-Most inexperienced players have no way of knowing what the requirements of the build they want to play are. They may know the general idea behind a "heal monk", but will they know what healing spells to bring? Will they know that they are also responsible for hex removal? Will they know that using Holy Veil - a rather un-obvious choice - is the most effective means of performing that same hex removal?
-The wait time to play one of these more "complex" team builds is nothing short of ludicrous. Before IWAY became the status quo (i.e. at the start of GW's life, when players usually played a large variety of individual builds) groups would usually take at least half an hour just to organize (sometimes well over an hour depending on the build and number of people playing at the time). Furthermore, once these groups finally did play, they usually won no more than two or three rounds on their first "warmup" attempt, frustrating most of these players into quitting PvP altogether.

Approach To Dealing with These Problems
Because of the nature of these problems, it is clear that there are two distinct aspects of the issue that must be addressed:
-The simplification of the group-finding system into a logical, efficient and intuitive one, preferably by means of an in-game framework that actively supports these ends.
-A means by which players can easily see and understand a group's needs in terms of individual builds and, likewise, a method by which groups can "browse" available players in order to rapidly find what they need.

Proposed Solution
An in-game system that actively maintains a voluntary list of information that spans ALL districts in a given geographical zone. This would be reminiscent of a "bulletin board" approach wherein the system would be broken down into two disctinct halves:
1) A "Looking for Group" list that allows players to submit one entry in which the following fields would be filled out. Manually: Build name and possibly a short description (i.e. Boon Healing Monk w/OOB). Automatically: Their entire skillbar, attribute allocation, armor types and weapons used (i.e. [Set of healing skills], OOB, Boon, Holy Veil; Divine Favor: 16, Healing: 10, Blood: 9; Tatoo Armor; Healing Rod/Healing Ankh.) This way, a group leader in ANY district, could rapidly scroll through a list of players (possibly broken down by primary class to make the lists shorter) and contact any player that would meet his or her requirements simply by selecting that individual's entry. Furthermore, they would know - without resorting to checking rank - that the player in question has a reasonably firm grip on his build and how to play it.
2) A "Group Looking for" list where a group leader could post a list of player builds needed to complete his or her group. This would, of course, include all Manually and Automatically inputed information as listed in part 1, only it would be directed towards un-joined players who could choose to browse through this list at their leisure until they found a request they could meet. At that point, they would simply select the entry, whisper the group's leader to find out district info, inform them they are rerolling (or are already playing the appropriate build) and allow that group to remove the entry since it has been filled. This would also have the double-benefit of helping newer players tremendously by telling them everything they need to know about the build they want to play. They will know what skills are needed, what armor to use, what weapons, how to distribute their attribute points, their runes - everything. I, for one, would have killed to have a fraction of that information at my finger tips when I first started playing PvP, and I'm certain that I'm not alone.

With this approach, Anet could: drastically reduce group-organizing times, increase the amount of playtime vs organizing time several times over for newer and experienced players alike, make a wider variety of builds practical to run in a "pickup" fashion, allow newer players to learn a wealth of fundamental information before they even joined their first group, encourage groups to "coach" new players rather than being practically forced to boot them (e.g. it is MUCH simpler to tell a player how/when to use a skill best as opposed to being faced with the impractical necessity of spending half an hour telling them how to even make their build before you can even begin to help them learn to play it), reduce rank-discimination, intermix newer players with experienced vets, and generally improve the PvP system by leaps and bounds.

Anet, I beg you, please start addressing GW's biggest and most fundamental problems. The fixes are incredibly simple and obvious once you think about them. I'm sure anyone here would gladly sacrifice the next tweak or PvE area to see these things fixed.

Thanks,
Cel

Vaga · Feb 12, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

They could also make a Tombs Ladder, and then have your emote based on your guilds rank on either the Tombs or GvG ladder.

Another way to fix the problem could be to remake the tombs maps, so that they aren't just a slaughterfest.

Orbberius · Feb 12, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Celios, that was an awesome post. I know Gaile et al. are reading this, so hopefully some of your suggestions are implemented.

I particularly like the idea of skill bar being visible to the leader. Whenever I message a leader with my skillbar, I get accepted almost 100% of the time.

Senator Tom · Feb 12, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

then dont run iway, most iway groups are gonna be like that
hang out in the lfg channel in sb vent, put in your comment what you like to play. sooner or later someone will come into the channel and say "we need a sb infuse monk and two shock warriors" (or something) i guess you like to play a warrior, so shock warrior would be good for you. so you say "oh yes kind sir, i would love to play a shock warrior in your team" if he asks you to emote, and you still arent ranked, just ask him to give you a shot. if your good, he will keep you. but if your not very good, people arent that nice, you'll most likely get kicked.

devils wraths · Feb 12, 2006, 04:56 PM // 16:56

when i go into tombs its been flodded with people doing iway i carnt get into a team because im a w/m and they dout them because they think they wont do any good. just because im a w/m doesnt mean i carnt do things

Akathrielah · Feb 12, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote: